Hi all,
Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
experimenting some more!
My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
degrees also.
Thoughts?
Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are going
to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
weighs in at 850 lbs.
Thanks in advance,
Don Ingraham
http://www.crosscountrysoaring.com

It is very common in continental Europe to suspend gliders from the hangar
roof to make full use of the space available. I'm sure someone who does
that will be along soon.

I have seen a Nimbus 3/4 strung up at a Swiss club.



At 06:28 07 October 2008, wrote:
>Hi all,
>Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
>resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
>an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
>holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
>Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
>will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
>quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
>Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
>experimenting some more!
>My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
>advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
>wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
>wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
>to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
>sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
>attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
>be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
>45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
>the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
>tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
>degrees also.
>Thoughts?
>Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are going
>to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
>thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
>weighs in at 850 lbs.
>Thanks in advance,
>Don Ingraham
>http://www.crosscountrysoaring.com
>

Hi Don,

Great idea! I can't wait to see it! I'd be glad to help.

Take a look at how the ASK-21 is hung at Stanton Airport. My guess is that
the system used is over-designed by a factor of 10.

Without doing any calculations, I would recommend seat belt material rather
than canvas. 2 to 4 straps should do the job easily - I think. They could
meet at the top of the glider where a cable could attach. You should be
able to get strength ratings for it the material. You'd want to use a safety
factor of 4 or so (only use 1/4 the of the weight they can handle). I'm not
giving you engineering advice, just my quick thoughts. I imagine that
putting knots into the seat belts would reduce their strength dramatically.

Paul Remde


"Pete Smith" > wrote in message
...
> It is very common in continental Europe to suspend gliders from the hangar
> roof to make full use of the space available. I'm sure someone who does
> that will be along soon.
>
> I have seen a Nimbus 3/4 strung up at a Swiss club.
>
>
>
> At 06:28 07 October 2008, wrote:
>>Hi all,
>>Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
>>resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
>>an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
>>holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
>>Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
>>will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
>>quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
>>Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
>>experimenting some more!
>>My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
>>advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
>>wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
>>wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
>>to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
>>sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
>>attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
>>be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
>>45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
>>the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
>>tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
>>degrees also.
>>Thoughts?
>>Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are going
>>to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
>>thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
>>weighs in at 850 lbs.
>>Thanks in advance,
>>Don Ingraham
>>http://www.crosscountrysoaring.com
>>

Hi Don,

In Germany, we use a few feet of firehose to suspend gliders from the
hangar roof. Advantage: You don't have to put knots into anything, you
can fix it with bolts right through the hose. Just like you suggested,
you make two slings, one well before the COG and one behind. You don't
necessarily have to attach it to the COG - hook, you just have to level
it out right.

Chris

On Oct 7, 2:28*am, wrote:
> Hi all,
> Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
> resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
> an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
> holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
> Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
> will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
> quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
> Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
> experimenting some more!
> My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
> advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
> wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
> wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
> to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
> sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
> attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
> be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
> 45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
> the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
> tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
> degrees also.
> Thoughts?
> Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are going
> to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
> thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
> weighs in at 850 lbs.
> Thanks in advance,
> Don Ingrahamhttp://www.crosscountrysoaring.com

Hi Don,

We routinely use wide nylon straps along the lines of what you are
describing to lift glider fuselages in a friend's shop. I would
suggest that you line them with a medium density foam to provide some
grip to prevent twisting. The cables to the wingtip will also help
with that.

Hope this works out for you!

Erik Mann (LS8-18 P3)

On Oct 7, 12:28*am, wrote:
> Hi all,
> Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
> resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
> an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
> holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
> Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
> will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
> quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
> Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
> experimenting some more!
> My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
> advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
> wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
> wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
> to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
> sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
> attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
> be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
> 45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
> the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
> tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
> degrees also.
> Thoughts?
> Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are going
> to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
> thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
> weighs in at 850 lbs.
> Thanks in advance,
> Don Ingrahamhttp://www.crosscountrysoaring.com

I think slings fore and aft of the wings and a third at the tail.
With fore/aft of wings, probably no need to use the CG hook.

Just a sling in the dolly position will result in way more than 50lbs
of tail weight with the wings on and no weight on the wheel.

Frank Whiteley

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008 23:28:48 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>Hi all,
>Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
>resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
>an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
>holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
>Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
>will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
>quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
>Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
>experimenting some more!
>My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
>advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
>wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
>wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
>to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
>sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
>attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
>be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
>45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
>the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
>tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
>degrees also.
>Thoughts?

I would look into the nylon straps that are sold for towing cars.
They're fairly soft, have sturdy hooks professionally attached at the
ends, and have specific load ratings.

rj

On Oct 7, 1:28*am, wrote:
> Hi all,
> Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
> resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
> an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
> holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
> Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
> will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
> quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
> Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
> experimenting some more!
> My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
> advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
> wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
> wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
> to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
> sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
> attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
> be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
> 45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
> the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
> tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
> degrees also.
> Thoughts?
> Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are going
> to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
> thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
> weighs in at 850 lbs.
> Thanks in advance,
> Don Ingrahamhttp://www.crosscountrysoaring.com

As Paul mentioned, the Stanton rig has been in use for many years - it
uses two straps about 6" wide, one in front and one behind the wing
and an I-beam frame above to tie it all together to the lift hoist. It
all looks very heavy duty.

I've been told there is a Std Cirrus suspended in a building somewhere
in downtown Minneapolis - you may want to check that out.

And there is a Std Cirrus mounted upside down on a steep angle to the
inside roof at Gwyn's High Alpine mid-mountain restaurant in Snowmass
- very cool!

Rather than engineer your own sling, there are plenty of industrial
lifting straps out there that are rated for whatever weight you want
to lift to many thousand of pounds. You can get custom straps made too
- a quick web search (no affiliation):

http://www.yellowslings.com/?mfss=google&mfsc=nylonslings&mfsa=nylonslings&mfsk=LiftingStraps&gclid=CLuJj7-llZYCFQOaFQodnRnJFA

With regards to satisfying the mall insurance guy, my guess is he will
demand a P.E. sign-off on the entire mounting system.

I look forward to seeing the dramatic results!

/Adam

On Oct 7, 8:30*am, Adam > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 1:28*am, wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hi all,
> > Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
> > resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
> > an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
> > holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
> > Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
> > will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
> > quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
> > Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
> > experimenting some more!
> > My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
> > advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
> > wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
> > wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
> > to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
> > sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
> > attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
> > be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
> > 45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
> > the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
> > tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
> > degrees also.
> > Thoughts?
> > Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are going
> > to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
> > thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
> > weighs in at 850 lbs.
> > Thanks in advance,
> > Don Ingrahamhttp://www.crosscountrysoaring.com
>
> As Paul mentioned, the Stanton rig has been in use for many years - it
> uses two straps about 6" wide, one in front and one behind the wing
> and an I-beam frame above to tie it all together to the lift hoist. It
> all looks very heavy duty.
>
> I've been told there is a Std Cirrus suspended in a building somewhere
> in downtown Minneapolis - you may want to check that out.
>
> And there is a Std Cirrus mounted upside down on a steep angle to the
> inside roof at Gwyn's High Alpine mid-mountain restaurant in Snowmass
> - very cool!
>
> Rather than engineer your own sling, there are plenty of industrial
> lifting straps out there that are rated for whatever weight you want
> to lift to many thousand of pounds. You can get custom straps made too
> - a quick web search (no affiliation):
>
> http://www.yellowslings.com/?mfss=google&mfsc=nylonslings&mfsa=nylons...
>
> With regards to satisfying the mall insurance guy, my guess is he will
> demand a P.E. sign-off on the entire mounting system.
>
> I look forward to seeing the dramatic results!
>
> /Adam

> I've been told there is a Std Cirrus suspended in a building somewhere
> in downtown Minneapolis - you may want to check that out.
>

If my memory is correct it was a Grob 102 and it was in Butler
Square. It was there when I lived in Minneapolis around 1993. There
was an image in Soaring during that period.

What you want for the straps are called "recovery straps". You should
be able to buy a pair off the shelf for the strength and length you
need.

The children's museum in Indianapolis had an SH-K suspended from a ceiling
for a number of years. The glider was donated to them by John McCarthy; it
is probably in storage there. The museum might have some advice.

At 15:11 07 October 2008, Tim Taylor wrote:
>On Oct 7, 8:30=A0am, Adam wrote:
>> On Oct 7, 1:28=A0am, wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> > Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
>> > resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I
have
>> > an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
>> > holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
>> > Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
>> > will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
>> > quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
>> > Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
>> > experimenting some more!
>> > My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or
good
>> > advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2
feet
>> > wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
>> > wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be
used
>> > to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
>> > sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
>> > attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail
could
>> > be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
>> > 45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
>> > the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
>> > tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
>> > degrees also.
>> > Thoughts?
>> > Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are
going
>> > to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
>> > thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
>> > weighs in at 850 lbs.
>> > Thanks in advance,
>> > Don Ingrahamhttp://www.crosscountrysoaring.com
>>
>> As Paul mentioned, the Stanton rig has been in use for many years - it
>> uses two straps about 6" wide, one in front and one behind the wing
>> and an I-beam frame above to tie it all together to the lift hoist. It
>> all looks very heavy duty.
>>
>> I've been told there is a Std Cirrus suspended in a building
somewhere
>> in downtown Minneapolis - you may want to check that out.
>>
>> And there is a Std Cirrus mounted upside down on a steep angle to the
>> inside roof at Gwyn's High Alpine mid-mountain restaurant in Snowmass
>> - very cool!
>>
>> Rather than engineer your own sling, there are plenty of industrial
>> lifting straps out there that are rated for whatever weight you want
>> to lift to many thousand of pounds. You can get custom straps made too
>> - a quick web search (no affiliation):
>>
>>
>http://www.yellowslings.com/?mfss=3Dgoogle&mfsc=3Dnylonslings&mfsa=3Dnylo=
>ns...
>>
>> With regards to satisfying the mall insurance guy, my guess is he will
>> demand a P.E. sign-off on the entire mounting system.
>>
>> I look forward to seeing the dramatic results!
>>
>> /Adam
>
>> I've been told there is a Std Cirrus suspended in a building
somewhere
>> in downtown Minneapolis - you may want to check that out.
>>
>
>If my memory is correct it was a Grob 102 and it was in Butler
>Square. It was there when I lived in Minneapolis around 1993. There
>was an image in Soaring during that period.
>
>What you want for the straps are called "recovery straps". You should
>be able to buy a pair off the shelf for the strength and length you
>need.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Oct 7, 9:11*am, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 8:30*am, Adam > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Oct 7, 1:28*am, wrote:
>
> > > Hi all,
> > > Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
> > > resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
> > > an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
> > > holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
> > > Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
> > > will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
> > > quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
> > > Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
> > > experimenting some more!
> > > My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
> > > advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
> > > wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
> > > wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
> > > to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
> > > sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
> > > attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
> > > be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
> > > 45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
> > > the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
> > > tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
> > > degrees also.
> > > Thoughts?
> > > Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are going
> > > to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
> > > thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
> > > weighs in at 850 lbs.
> > > Thanks in advance,
> > > Don Ingrahamhttp://www.crosscountrysoaring.com
>
> > As Paul mentioned, the Stanton rig has been in use for many years - it
> > uses two straps about 6" wide, one in front and one behind the wing
> > and an I-beam frame above to tie it all together to the lift hoist. It
> > all looks very heavy duty.
>
> > I've been told there is a Std Cirrus suspended in a building somewhere
> > in downtown Minneapolis - you may want to check that out.
>
> > And there is a Std Cirrus mounted upside down on a steep angle to the
> > inside roof at Gwyn's High Alpine mid-mountain restaurant in Snowmass
> > - very cool!
>
> > Rather than engineer your own sling, there are plenty of industrial
> > lifting straps out there that are rated for whatever weight you want
> > to lift to many thousand of pounds. You can get custom straps made too
> > - a quick web search (no affiliation):
>
> >http://www.yellowslings.com/?mfss=google&mfsc=nylonslings&mfsa=nylons...
>
> > With regards to satisfying the mall insurance guy, my guess is he will
> > demand a P.E. sign-off on the entire mounting system.
>
> > I look forward to seeing the dramatic results!
>
> > /Adam
> > I've been told there is a Std Cirrus suspended in a building somewhere
> > in downtown Minneapolis - you may want to check that out.
>
> If my memory is correct it was a Grob 102 and it was in Butler
> Square. *It was there when I lived in Minneapolis around 1993. *There
> was an image in Soaring during that period.
>
> What you want for the straps are called "recovery straps". *You should
> be able to buy a pair off the shelf for the strength and length you
> need.

Thanks to google:

It was a Speed Astir

http://www.stevendahlman.com/pictorial/mpls07.htm

http://www.butlersquare.com/

go to photos (I can't get them to play but maybe someone can)

I use a couple of 12" wide nylon slings (McMaster-Carr) and cheapo Harbor
Freight electric hoists to lift my ASH26E in the hangar. The width of the
nylon straps is overkill, but I wanted to spread the load, one in front of
the wing and the other under the engine compartment.

I use a painter to the wingtip if I have fuel in the wing tanks as the fuel
will drain to the low wing and then it'll get really low! There's very
little load on the painter.

To suspend a glider in a mall, you might consider using manual come-alongs
for the lifting, suspending them using nylon straps over existing steel
beams and reaching the come alongs either with high A-frame ladders or a
man-lift. Or perhaps the glider could be lifted into position using a larger
lift platform with cradle attached?

In any case, it may be way easier to get approval for all this if the glider
is roped off so people can't get under the thing. I can't imagine a fire
dept or other safety agency approving it otherwise, or without engineering
analysis etc. Besides, most of the slings and other hardware needed for this
will be labeled as "not intended for overhead lifting" etc.

bumper

> wrote in message
...
> Hi all,
> Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
> resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings?

Thanks for the ideas and contact information!

Tim, the URL you sent me off-line for the Tree Straps appears to solve
that part - https://www.expeditionexchange.com/straps/
Thanks!

It just occurred to me that if the canopies are off, it becomes
possible to connect inside the fuselage - perhaps a strap under the
front drag-spar carry-through, just behind the back seat. That would
be more elegant in appearance (the overall goal) than big straps under
the belly and would put the load where it was designed to go. It could
even run under the spars I guess, with a little forward triangulation
to allow for a vertical exit.
Frank, you're right that a strap a foot or so ahead of the main wheel
would make the tail weight more than 50 lbs.. It wieghs 45lbs just
sitting on the main.
Hmmm....

Don

On Oct 7, 10:55*am, "bumper" > wrote:
> I use a couple of 12" wide nylon slings (McMaster-Carr) and cheapo Harbor
> Freight electric hoists to lift my ASH26E in the hangar. The width of the
> nylon straps is overkill, but I wanted to spread the load, one in front of
> the wing and the other under the engine compartment.
>
> I use a painter to the wingtip if I have fuel in the wing tanks as the fuel
> will drain to the low wing and then it'll get really low! There's very
> little load on the painter.
>
> To suspend a glider in a mall, you might consider using manual come-alongs
> for the lifting, suspending them using nylon straps over existing steel
> beams and reaching the come alongs either with high A-frame ladders or a
> man-lift. Or perhaps the glider could be lifted into position using a larger
> lift platform with cradle attached?
>
> In any case, it may be way easier to get approval for all this if the glider
> is roped off so people can't get under the thing. I can't imagine a fire
> dept or other safety agency approving it otherwise, or without engineering
> analysis etc. Besides, most of the slings and other hardware needed for this
> will be labeled as "not intended for overhead lifting" etc.
>
> bumper
>
> > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Hi all,
> > Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
> > resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Dang. Good point. In fact, I've been dealing with the mall leasing
agent up until now. Before spending any more time on this, it would be
smart for me to get all the way through to the workers and the
lawyers. I'm not too excited about a floor display though (they break
easy and fix hard).
Don

On Oct 7, 10:54*am, Tim Taylor > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 9:11*am, Tim Taylor > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Oct 7, 8:30*am, Adam > wrote:
>
> > > On Oct 7, 1:28*am, wrote:
>
> > > > Hi all,
> > > > Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
> > > > resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
> > > > an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
> > > > holiday season. I am pushing for having a Santa in the back and a
> > > > Rudolf leaning forward in the front, scarf trailing. Both canopies
> > > > will be off. I will have a Glider Ride Gift Certificate booth [not
> > > > quite directly] underneath. Some of you may have seen my Mall
> > > > Experiment article in the June 2008 issue of Soaring. Well, I'm
> > > > experimenting some more!
> > > > My first thought, unencumbered by either engineering training or good
> > > > advice, is to fabricate a heavy duty, white canvas sling, maybe 2 feet
> > > > wide, that would go where the fuselage dolly goes, in front of the
> > > > wings and as far aft as possible. The CG hook mechanism could be used
> > > > to attach to it also to protect against slippage. The sling would be
> > > > sewn proffessionally, providing a pair of rip-free, foolproof,
> > > > attachment points on each side. The remaining 50 lbs on the tail could
> > > > be handled with a wire running from this central sling support cable
> > > > 45 degrees down to the horizontal stab attachment bolt at the top of
> > > > the verticle stab. The wings could have wires running from the wing
> > > > tip skid/tie downs to this central sling support cable at about 45
> > > > degrees also.
> > > > Thoughts?
> > > > Clearly the mall engineers and their insurance underwriters are going
> > > > to have the last word, but if any of you have advice/experience/
> > > > thoughts, I'd sure appreciate hearing from you. Oh yeah, the 103
> > > > weighs in at 850 lbs.
> > > > Thanks in advance,
> > > > Don Ingrahamhttp://www.crosscountrysoaring.com
>
> > > As Paul mentioned, the Stanton rig has been in use for many years - it
> > > uses two straps about 6" wide, one in front and one behind the wing
> > > and an I-beam frame above to tie it all together to the lift hoist. It
> > > all looks very heavy duty.
>
> > > I've been told there is a Std Cirrus suspended in a building somewhere
> > > in downtown Minneapolis - you may want to check that out.
>
> > > And there is a Std Cirrus mounted upside down on a steep angle to the
> > > inside roof at Gwyn's High Alpine mid-mountain restaurant in Snowmass
> > > - very cool!
>
> > > Rather than engineer your own sling, there are plenty of industrial
> > > lifting straps out there that are rated for whatever weight you want
> > > to lift to many thousand of pounds. You can get custom straps made too
> > > - a quick web search (no affiliation):
>
> > >http://www.yellowslings.com/?mfss=google&mfsc=nylonslings&mfsa=nylons...
>
> > > With regards to satisfying the mall insurance guy, my guess is he will
> > > demand a P.E. sign-off on the entire mounting system.
>
> > > I look forward to seeing the dramatic results!
>
> > > /Adam
> > > I've been told there is a Std Cirrus suspended in a building somewhere
> > > in downtown Minneapolis - you may want to check that out.
>
> > If my memory is correct it was a Grob 102 and it was in Butler
> > Square. *It was there when I lived in Minneapolis around 1993. *There
> > was an image in Soaring during that period.
>
> > What you want for the straps are called "recovery straps". *You should
> > be able to buy a pair off the shelf for the strength and length you
> > need.
>
> Thanks to google:
>
> It was a Speed Astir
>
> http://www.stevendahlman.com/pictorial/mpls07.htm
>
> http://www.butlersquare.com/
>
> go to photos (I can't get them to play but maybe someone can)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Interesting - James H. Binger (ex-CEO of Honeywell and philanthropist)
is listed as the owner. I wonder from where he flew it locally?

http://www.butlersquare.com/speedastir.htm

Don,

It occurs to me that the biggest collection of hanging aircraft anywhere is
in the Simthsonian Air & Space Museum. I wonder if you could get a curator
to give you some tips. It might be worth a phone call.

Attaching to the inside structure would be my first choice for asthetic
reasons. I'm not sure how strong the anchor points are but the rear seat
belts might be useful. There's four structural anchor points to work with.

Bill Daniels
> wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the ideas and contact information!
>
> Tim, the URL you sent me off-line for the Tree Straps appears to solve
> that part - https://www.expeditionexchange.com/straps/
> Thanks!
>
> It just occurred to me that if the canopies are off, it becomes
> possible to connect inside the fuselage - perhaps a strap under the
> front drag-spar carry-through, just behind the back seat. That would
> be more elegant in appearance (the overall goal) than big straps under
> the belly and would put the load where it was designed to go. It could
> even run under the spars I guess, with a little forward triangulation
> to allow for a vertical exit.
> Frank, you're right that a strap a foot or so ahead of the main wheel
> would make the tail weight more than 50 lbs.. It wieghs 45lbs just
> sitting on the main.
> Hmmm....
>
> Don

Bill Daniels wrote:

> It occurs to me that the biggest collection of hanging aircraft anywhere is
> in the Simthsonian Air & Space Museum. I wonder if you could get a curator
> to give you some tips. It might be worth a phone call.

Dunno. To me, it occurs that the biggest collection of hanging *gliders*
is the Wasserkuppe museum.

http://www.segelflugmuseum.de/was_wir_zeigen_4872.html?psid=5be50d710fca53b14610 1c4f67fa1076

I'm not sure they can give you useful tips, though, as their suspending
method is pretty definitive (drilling holes).

> Dang. Good point. In fact, I've been dealing with the mall leasing
> agent up until now. Before spending any more time on this, it would be
> smart for me to get all the way through to the workers and the
> lawyers. I'm not too excited about a floor display though (they break
> easy and fix hard).
> Don

If the hanged glider idea does not work due to technical/lawyer
challenges, how about a big sturdy (probably steel and hopefully nice
looking...) stand to mount it to that would make it look like a 1:1
scale model, Santa/reindeer and all. (perhaps in a nose low attitude
to show off rosy cheeks and red noses). Off the top of my head, the
main wheel could be removed and the undercarriage hard points used to
rigid mount it to the stand. Aesthetically, I think that would look
better than being slung with thick (possibly brightly colored...)
webbing. The base of the stand would need to be rather large, but
obviously it could be constructed in segments that bolt together on
site.

The 45# tail-weight (main wheel as fulcrum...) can be either designed
into the load stresses of the stand many different ways, or ballasted
out entirely ( I suppose ballasting it out is an option for hanging
too). Supplementary 1/8" wire rope could be strung up off the
wingtips (and possibly the tail too if needed...) to add additional
stability if necessary or desired, with little aesthetic impact. Just
a thought...

-Paul

wrote:
> Hi all,
> Has anyone out there ever suspended a glider in the air without
> resorting to the conventional method of airflow over the wings? I have
> an opportunity to hang both of my Grob 103's in two malls over the
> holiday season.

Can large metal tabs be placed on the fuselage lift pins before the
wings are attached? That would provide 4 points with the CG in the
middle (mostly). Each tab could have a hole in the top large enough for
the attachment to a cable; the four cables would be brought together,
say, 5 feet above the CG, where the cable from the ceiling beam would
attach to them.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Oct 7, 12:48*pm, wrote:
> Thanks for the ideas and contact information!
>
> Tim, the URL you sent me off-line for the Tree Straps appears to solve
> that part -https://www.expeditionexchange.com/straps/
> Thanks!
>
> It just occurred to me that if the canopies are off, it becomes
> possible to connect inside the fuselage - perhaps a strap under the
> front drag-spar carry-through, just behind the back seat. That would
> be more elegant in appearance (the overall goal) than big straps under
> the belly and would put the load where it was designed to go. It could
> even run under the spars I guess, with a little forward triangulation
> to allow for a vertical exit.
> Frank, you're *right that a strap a foot or so ahead of the main wheel
> would make the tail weight more than 50 lbs.. It wieghs 45lbs just
> sitting on the main.
> Hmmm....
>
> Don

Hi Don,

By now, you must be wondering just what you got yourself into :-)

After I posted the first mail, it occured to me that the Arnot Mall in
Elmira/Horseheads had a 1-26 hanging from the ceiling for many years.
Haven't been there lately, but I'm sure some Harris Hill folks will
chime in. Since lawyers love precendent, I wonder if it wouldn't be
a good idea to reach out to the Arnot Mall management and see if
they'd be willing to speak to the folks at your mall. At minumum,
they may be able to supply a couple of pictures. Yeah, it's a tube
and steel glider and likely suspnded by the frame behind the pilot
seat, but the John Q. Lawyer probably doesn't know that.

P3

Bill Daniels <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote:
> Don,
>
> It occurs to me that the biggest collection of hanging aircraft anywhere is
> in the Simthsonian Air & Space Museum. I wonder if you could get a curator
> to give you some tips. It might be worth a phone call.
>
> Attaching to the inside structure would be my first choice for asthetic
> reasons. I'm not sure how strong the anchor points are but the rear seat
> belts might be useful. There's four structural anchor points to work with.

If it's helpful at all, I took a picture of Robert Harris's Grob 102 while
visiting the Smithsonian this summer, here:

http://pix.mikeash.com/v/gliderflyingandudvarhazy/IMG_2222.JPG.html

If you click on the picture to get the full-sized ones, the attachments
are shown pretty clearly. Looks like a loop around the tail, and then some
kind of cabling going into the space between the body and the wing,
perhaps going around the spar.

(Incidentally this exhibit made a big impression on me, seeing just how
mundane and normal world-record-setting equipment can be. Very cool.)

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

On Oct 7, 4:06*am, Pete Smith > wrote:
> I have seen a Nimbus 3/4 strung up at a Swiss club.

Best not follow this example.
I bet when they started they had a whole Nimbus.
See ya, Dave

Marshall Soaring Club in Marshall Michigan suspends a 103 from the
hanger ceiling over the tow plane and brings it down every weekend.
They use two straps and an electric winch, plus a guide rope to one
wingtip I believe. Plus they have a cool Website URL: www.soaringclub.org.

On Oct 7, 3:58*pm, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 12:48*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Thanks for the ideas and contact information!
>
> > Tim, the URL you sent me off-line for the Tree Straps appears to solve
> > that part -https://www.expeditionexchange.com/straps/
> > Thanks!
>
> > It just occurred to me that if the canopies are off, it becomes
> > possible to connect inside the fuselage - perhaps a strap under the
> > front drag-spar carry-through, just behind the back seat. That would
> > be more elegant in appearance (the overall goal) than big straps under
> > the belly and would put the load where it was designed to go. It could
> > even run under the spars I guess, with a little forward triangulation
> > to allow for a vertical exit.
> > Frank, you're *right that a strap a foot or so ahead of the main wheel
> > would make the tail weight more than 50 lbs.. It wieghs 45lbs just
> > sitting on the main.
> > Hmmm....
>
> > Don
>
> Hi Don,
>
> By now, you must be wondering just what you got yourself into :-)
>
> After I posted the first mail, it occured to me that the Arnot Mall in
> Elmira/Horseheads had a 1-26 hanging from the ceiling for many years.
> Haven't been there lately, but I'm sure some Harris Hill folks will
> chime in. * Since lawyers love precendent, I wonder if it wouldn't be
> a good idea to reach out to the Arnot Mall management and see if
> they'd be willing to speak to the folks at your mall. * At minumum,
> they may be able to supply a couple of pictures. *Yeah, it's a tube
> and steel glider and likely suspnded by the frame behind the pilot
> seat, but the John Q. Lawyer probably doesn't know that.
>
> P3- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The idea of precedent clears many paths! In layman's terms, it's
pronounced 'plausible deniability". :-) Thanks for the idea of such
an approach. Whichever example of connecting the cables prevails, and
there are some good ones here, the idea of precedent might just be the
catalyst. Thanks!
Don

At 19:15 07 October 2008, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
>It occurs to me that the biggest collection of hanging aircraft anywhere
>is
>in the Simthsonian Air & Space Museum.

For that matter, the Soaring Museum in Elmira sort of
specializes in just the type of aircraft you're dealing with.

Jim Beckman

On Oct 7, 4:58*pm, Papa3 > wrote:
> On Oct 7, 12:48*pm, wrote:
>
>
>
> > Thanks for the ideas and contact information!
>
> > Tim, the URL you sent me off-line for the Tree Straps appears to solve
> > that part -https://www.expeditionexchange.com/straps/
> > Thanks!
>
> > It just occurred to me that if the canopies are off, it becomes
> > possible to connect inside the fuselage - perhaps a strap under the
> > front drag-spar carry-through, just behind the back seat. That would
> > be more elegant in appearance (the overall goal) than big straps under
> > the belly and would put the load where it was designed to go. It could
> > even run under the spars I guess, with a little forward triangulation
> > to allow for a vertical exit.
> > Frank, you're *right that a strap a foot or so ahead of the main wheel
> > would make the tail weight more than 50 lbs.. It wieghs 45lbs just
> > sitting on the main.
> > Hmmm....
>
> > Don
>
> Hi Don,
>
> By now, you must be wondering just what you got yourself into :-)
>
> After I posted the first mail, it occured to me that the Arnot Mall in
> Elmira/Horseheads had a 1-26 hanging from the ceiling for many years.
> Haven't been there lately, but I'm sure some Harris Hill folks will
> chime in. * Since lawyers love precendent, I wonder if it wouldn't be
> a good idea to reach out to the Arnot Mall management and see if
> they'd be willing to speak to the folks at your mall. * At minumum,
> they may be able to supply a couple of pictures. *Yeah, it's a tube
> and steel glider and likely suspnded by the frame behind the pilot
> seat, but the John Q. Lawyer probably doesn't know that.
>
> P3

The 1-26 (001) that hangs in the Arnot Mall near Elmira, NY belongs to
the National Soaring Museum, as does the Arnot/Herring Primary Glider
replica next to it. In the NSM itself, we currently have 17 gliders
hanging, including 3 that were installed within recent months. You've
already received plenty of good advice, but give us a call if you wish
(607-734-3128).

Peter Smith

First, great idea.

My next thought is that you are going to need to check with various
"authorities" before moving too far forward. There may be some
stringent requirements when hanging a ~700lb (310kg) item over
people's head.

Start with the mall. They may point you to the professionals that
they use (and alluded to earlier). I will bet you will have to get a
sign off from a city/county/state official.

Keep us informed as to what you find out. I, for one, am very
interested.

- John